Flashback/Update: Ron Paul Supporters Targeting Kline
David Gerson is a Ron Paul supporter who lives in CD5 who is challenging CD2 Congressman John Kline. Kris Broberg is Gerson’s manager.
He’d been planning on something against Kline for a while…..
You may have seen him at the convention in St. Cloud. He was one of those guys in the funky red hats (That’s him on the right). Heard some rumors what they were for…
Mr. Broberg seems to be accusing Republicans of some very disturbing things.
Kris Broberg shared a link via Lew Rockwell.
Virtually the entire GOP is dedicated to fascism, mass murder, and the police state. – Lew Rockwell
He also doesn’t like ANY of the elected Republicans in Congress from Minnesota.
Kris Broberg shared a link.
I actually appreciate her getting Swiss citizenship, but her voting record needs to be examined. It is because of voting records like hers, John Kline, Eric Paulsen, Chip Cravaack and many others that we need to think about getting citizenship in other countries.”Thank you Ms. Bachmann for all your horrible votes that you have stuck the rest of us with since you have been in Congress: NDAA, Patriot Act, Food “Unsafety” Bill, CISPA, etc, etc, etc. I hear Switzerland has more freedom than we do after all of your “Aye” votes on truckloads of terrible bills.Thank you for pretending to obey the constitution while you helped rip it up like the majority of the rest of the members of Congress. ”
And of course there’s the thing that many of us worry about when we’re told to shut up and welcome these new people with open arms and listen to them….
“We’ll probably write Ron Paul in (on the ballot in November) because voting for one of the other ones is just throwing your vote away,” said Heather GlennI couldn’t have put it any better.
For the record, I have been a Republican since 1990 and worked for candidates I believed in over that time, including a lot of work for Rod Grams, as well as running for office myself. I also worked quite a bit for Tom Emmer. Over this time I have been disappointed by the direction of this country, especially under the Bush administration when Republicans controlled both the house and senate and grew government massively. (Democrats are worse.)
We do need to clean up our own party, if we just vote for people over and again because they are seated congressmen we can’t really change things. John Kline has had a poor voting record for quite some time. He continues to have a poor voting record. It is no secret I would love to see him replaced. I have worked at CD 2 convention along with many others to expose John Kline’s voting record.
http://www.examiner.com/article/kline-s-surprise
Call me name if you want try to destroy me. I am sincerely worried about the direction of this country. I believe the Democrat Party is hopeless and I believe the Republican is our only hope right now, but it has major problem. I encourage you to join and David, who is a very accomplished individual, in making a statement about the direction of this Party and turn out John Kline.
Research his voting record for yourself.
Kris Brobegr
OK, I have researched his voting record, and I find that I agree with him 95% of the time. Do you really think I am going to vote for somebody with NO track record and not a snowball’s chance of holding the seat? Somebody with no issue positions except being a rubberstamp for the wildest of Ron Paul’s wacky excesses? Somebody with no real affiliation for the Party he wants to represent, and who believes that we’re all going to believe that the Party we have worked so long and hard to put into power, whose agenda we support (though admittedly sometimes a little bit better than our elected officials do) is so bad that a Democrat would be preferable? Andy is right: it’s mission impossible for you.
And yet anyone in the MNGOP that dares takes the slightest issue with some of the current flawed incumbents is hypocritically told in no uncertain terms to “SHUT UP” by the old guard status quo MNGOP’ers and like good obedient little children we must continue rubber stamping their hypocritical bible-thumping warmongering bedroom invading theocratic agenda! Who are you kidding?
The old guard sanctimoniously and self-righteously pervasively REFUSES to listen to any dissenters whether RP’ers or not. The throttling of any dissent no matter how slight within the MNGOP has been pervasive for years if not decades. Nor do they actually spend time objectively researching dissenting arguments or objectively looking at the issues. They stubbornly cling to their time worn and traditional bible-thumping warmongering slop as if it were a virtue. To them the most important issue and agenda is not to promote smaller government, individual liberty, and the principles of the US Constitution, but to merely defeat the marxist progressives in the short term and slow the path to total tyranny. Unfortunately, they have no real ideological clue on how to stop it. To them it is somehow just a periodic intramural event between the GOP and the DFL and will thus advocate any pragmatic method to win the contest dujour.
Moreover, citing an incumbents experience in consistently compromising on prime principles as the reason d’etre for support and categorically dismissing any and all challengers or dissenters out of hand by some is ludicrous, dishonest, and speaks for itself.
There is a vast difference between “refusing to listen to dissenters,” especially of the noisy “95% is not good enough”/Paulbot variety, and the simple fact that most MNGOPers are not convinced by vapid arguments shouted at them. You want respect for your positions, CONVINCE us with facts and reasons and the overwhelming logic of such. I mean, seriously, if you can’t convince a bunch of Republicans that your ideas are mainstream common sense, how do you expect to convince the mainstream of the electorate?
Really, these folks are just another in a long string of people who need to learn that, while forsaking principle just to win elections is a bad thing, clinging so tightly to every principle that one loses is NOTHING. Worse than nothing, actually. If you’ve got a better candidate, trot him out during the endorsement and see if we all agree. After that, you vote for the Republican or you get the Democrat. Them’s your choices and the fact you don’t like it doesn’t alter the universe one bit.
When a recalcitrant and sanctimonious ignorance is in play, and whereas the typical old guard GOPer accepts without question the propaganda from sources such as FOX news, Limbaugh, Hannity, and the other papist NEOCONs as the primary basis for their political religion and the self-righteously use that to set State & National agenda is disasterous. At best it merely slows down the march towards tyranny.
The refusal to listen or even investigate the Liberty or Ron Paul movement is pervasive. The recent acrimony by the likes of Gilmore, Repya, et. al. are illustrative. It is they and their old guard minions that are loudest and it is they that resort to the vapid arguments, ad homenims, lies, distortions and apply them with relish and reckless abandon. To remain silent to that vitriol and to sheepishly “shut up” and be good little republicans in the name of “party unity” lacks nazi like obedience to propaganda of Joseph Geobels.
Indeed it seems to be the case that many old guard MNGOPers are not and will never be convinced thru reasonable argument but maliciously resort to rule breaking, procedural shenanigans as in past conventions, name calling, willful mischaracterizations, and pontificating sanctimonious ignorance.
The internet, Facebook, Youtube, and other sources are replete with examples of unprovoked GOP election fraud, corruption, criminality, disenfranchisement, bullying, physical attacks and injuries, to Ron Paul supporters. Recent and well documented events in Nevada, Arizona, Washington State, Maine, Missouri, and many other Caucus States are indicative and illustrative. Something you won’t see on prime time MSM . But then again, most Republicans “faithfully” only get their information from the miscreants at FOX, obese and bloated Radio Talking heads, and other elite controlled MSM and like good little Christians “believe!”
“I mean, seriously, if you can’t convince a bunch of Republicans that your ideas are mainstream common sense, how do you expect to convince the mainstream of the electorate?”
Good question. First listen to them and dare to personally discover what motivates them to become politically active all of sudden.
You’ll find it’s because of the internet and not the propaganda and lies of the corrupt Mass Media.
For those critical of the movement, I dare them to explain the fact of the exponential worldwide growth of the Liberty movement and why the movement has attracted the majority of the young and many heretofore silent republicans, Independents, and democrats? How do you explain the fact of the explosive growth of the RP movement within the MN? After all, these kids are not the flotsam of the OWS bozos, anarchists, squatters, hippies, or brain-dead morons glued to the idiot box looking at VH1, MTV, or Dancing with the stars. Most are college educated, professionals, hardworking, and clean cut and yet the “mainstream common sense” MSM portrays and associates them as hooligans and the GOP old guard conveniently and self-servingly either buys into that fi8ctitious slop or propagates it so that the average republican treats and regards them accordingly.
On the other hand, unlike the average complacent republican, the RPers have actually educated themselves thanks to the internet. They see where the Republic, their freedoms, the economy, and their lives are headed under the current status quo political religions whether Pachyderm or Jackass. They see very little significant difference between the two. They know both are statist, intervening either in the free market or interfering in the bedroom and in the affairs of other nations. To deny that implies a withdrawal from reality and a total lack of understanding of the Constitution and what it means to be an American.
The real question that needs to be asked by real republicans is why has Minnesota has been a Blue State for so long, despite the alleged know it all and holier than thou pontification by some of the old guard with same time worn way of doing things, repeating the same old bible-thumping warmongering mantra, pushing the mostly incomprehensible, never achievable, and inconsistent platform?
The “mainstream common sense” that was pointed out in a previous commentary, is to many old guard Minnesota Republicans to complacently BUY into whatever the MSM propaganda machine alleges to be “mainstream common sense, hook line and sinker and then sheepishly to respond to the MSM and the NEOCON elite’s agenda without question in the name of “party unity” where 95 percent compliance is expected. Else you’re not a real republican. Give me a freakin’ break! And you have the gall to wonder why the new comers are a bit vocal?
There real question to be asked is what Indeed has the MNGOP historically actually achieved into turning Minnesota into a RED state? Into significantly growing the Party? Into being more inclusive? Into significantly decreasing the size and scope of our State’s government? Sorry to say, those and more recent attempts, with the exception of achieving periodic legislative and State governorships have been spectacularly unsuccessful in convincing the majority of the State’s electorate. It is no accident that the Ron Paul/Liberty movement has not only attracted and motivated many silent republicans, independents, but democrats as well not only in Minnesota but in all the other states as well. It is no accident that the largest contributing group that have contributed to the Ron Paul movement is from the military. After all, if it isn’t mentioned by the MSM or FOX it must not exist or be true.
“you vote for the Republican or you get the Democrat. Them’s your choices and the fact you don’t like it doesn’t alter the universe one bit.”
Neither does cowardly and moronic voting for the lessor of two evils. It, if anything only marginally slows the inevitable march to tyranny. It is a false dialectic particularly when other options are available. It was no accident that Ventura was elected several years ago. Of course there is simple abstention to participate in the corrupt game or simply voting for a third party. Currently the much perverted basic fundamentals and recent stated ideologies of both parties are more similar than different.
The choice really is between Liberty or Tyranny, not just GOP or DFL Hopefully, with the inclusion and infusion of the energetic RP crowd it will continue to be in the direction of Liberty.
OH, now I understand! \sarc We shouldn’t be calling you uninformed “Paulbots” because YOU have studied the issues thoroughly and everybody but us “old guard” agrees with you completely. The only reason we don’t is because we are too stupid and uniformed to grasp the brilliance of your position, is that about it? No ad hominem there, right? We will never be persuaded by rational argument? Perhaps, but have you ever tried?
But really, you mean a “false dialectic” is saying that there are effectively two choices on the ballot, a Democrat and a Republican? On what conceivable basis is that not the essential truth of the matter? One of them is going to win and assume power and drive the nation further towards socialism, or away from it, to some degree. The lesser of two evils may still be evil, but it is still less evil. Why on earth would you vote for more evil, or for somebody “perfect” in your view that allows evil to triumph? Don’t tell me to vote for nobody, because then the Democrat wins. Don’t tell me to vote for the most perfect conservative/constitutionalist/whatever, because then the Democrat wins. Unless you can guarantee me that the RP message wins elections, I’m not interested in a candidate whose only fame is being “right” from that very narrow perspective. Especially when I can find a candidate that CAN win an election and is right more than 50% (maybe even 95%) of the time.
Have you ever considered that all of these young RP enthusiasts do not have the rational basis or experience to understand the RP message? Believe me, I have debated them and they are as bad as Democrats on the logical underpinnings for much of their cult-like belief system. It sounds good, and has a sound constitutional underpinning for most of it, but but the resulting issue positions are politically unpalatable for the vast majority of Americans.
Have you ever considered that all of these young RP enthusiasts do not have the rational basis or experience to understand the RP message? Believe me, I have debated them and they are as bad as Democrats on the logical underpinnings for much of their cult-like belief system.
Yes of course, but debating those that do not does not necessarily invalidate the RP message. The same holds true to the Obama, the Romneybots, the Santoribots, and the Neocon military-industrial enthusiasts. I would suggest that you go beyond merely debating some random local RP enthusiasts and do a little more surfing on the internet beyond the narrow local blogs and OLD guard GOP sites. Again ask yourself, why has the RP movement attracted some many in such a short time, particularly within MN?
Logical underpinnings? Whose logic? Yours? How about philosophical underpinnings? Even a totally irrational mystical belief system has logical underpinnings provided you accept it’s basic premises. If the basic premises are false, the entire belief system is false.
“We shouldn’t be calling you uninformed “Paulbots” because YOU have studied the issues thoroughly and everybody but us “old guard” agrees with you completely. The only reason we don’t is because we are too stupid and uniformed to grasp the brilliance of your position, is that about it?”
Yes, that’s about it but not necessarily stupid just incalcitrant and pig headed. You’re guilty of primarily relying on the selectively dished out MSM propoganda and hype and feel perhaps due to age incapable of thinking outside the box. You’re set in your ways and are extremely uncomfortable changing your ingrained flawed belief systems and habits.
“It sounds good, and has a sound constitutional underpinning for most of it, but but the resulting issue positions are politically unpalatable for the vast majority of Americans.”
Agreed! There is much hope in that you recognize that and if so then help all you can to make it politically palatable instead of implicitly obstructing it.
There it is again. You aren’t calling me “stupid, just incalcitrant [sic]and pig headed.” You have absolutely no idea what my sources of information are or what knowledge I may have, nor even what debate points I might raise if you would debate an issue. You simply dismiss all disagreement because I do not accept YOUR conclusions as Ultimate Truth. Never going to happen, even though I am one of the few inclined to agree with your basic principles. If you cannot convince me other than by calling me stupid and uninformed how do you expect to convince any more than the few thousand “Paulbots” (and please excuse the term though it is somewhat accurate, IMHO) in Minnesota?
I long ago decided that clinging tightly to principle to lose is still to lose, and that an imperfect Republican win is always and forever a win. I’ll say again, there is a binary choice in November between a Republican and a Democrat. You can’t control who the Democrat candidate is, and unless you are willing to do everything you can to elect the Republican, you can’t alter who wins in November. This primary challenge is, at its very best, trying to make the perfect the enemy of the good enough. Let me ask it this way: if your chosen candidate does NOT win the primary, will you put full effort behind the Kline campaign?
“If you cannot convince me other than by calling me stupid and uninformed how do you expect to convince any more than the few thousand “Paulbots” (and please excuse the term though it is somewhat accurate, IMHO) in Minnesota?”
One the one hand in your opening remark you state: You aren’t calling me “stupid, just incalcitrant [sic]and pig headed. Then in the above statement you claim that I am. Truth is I never said that. The “stupid” label was self-labeling on your part not mine.
Make no mistake, the Ron Paul supporters highly value some of the dedicated MNGOP old guard that have historically worked hard and diligently maintained their integrity to principle and contributed to the MNGOP infrastructure, intra-party ethics and procedures. Else the RPers would have gone third party or to the DFL. And for what you’ve done personally in the past to ensure that it is such, is without a doubt certainly worthy, honorable, commendable, and should be rewarded accordingly.
And yet despite all that valiant effort by you and others, MN is still a “blue state!” and I suspect will continue to be so with your viewpoints and those of the old guard.
Is it the ineffectual pragmatism of merely selecting the “good enough?”, or simply that the prevailing MNGOP message does not exactly resonate with the majority of Minnesotans? Do you think that the dated and flawed message, given the increasing change in State demographics will improve that situation for the MNGOP in the future? Or are you like the DFLers that think that all your perceived problems can be solved by a “coercive government” once the MNGOP gains power with “good enough” candidates?
I and many other Minnesotans have doubts and have seen the results election cycle after election cycle. Been fooled and disappointed too often. Meanwhile the State and national government continues to grow and become ever more intrusive. It invalidates a prime GOP principle and the Constitution of limited government and despite traditional MNGOP old guard pragmatism in selecting “good enough” the results it has been ineffectual in stopping the increasing the rape of the MN tax payer and individual freedoms: Tax payer stadium funding, Taxes changed to Fees. Bridges collapsing. Farm, ethanol and other subsidies. Unnecessary and unasked for infrastructure funding, and other boondoggles. Fact remains that many “good enough” say one thing during their candidacy and then do another citing “pragmatism” as their reason d’etre while the State and the Nation continue to slowly and pervasively drift into the Marxist liberal universe. Indeed all that “pragmatism” achieves is in the long term a slight attenuation of that drift and is ideologically ineffective in halting it.
Voting for the lesser of an evil is still evil no matter how you seek to justify it in the name of pragmatism. Whenever one compromises with evil, it is only evil that wins. And the more that one subscribes to the notion of “pragmatism” and “political expediency” the more basic principles are compromised. Until that notion changes we Republicans have Bush, Dole, Bush, McCain, Romney, Bush, Dole, Bush, McCain, Romney ad infinitum shoved down our throats in the name of “unity” as we continue to accelerate into the marxist/fascist utopia.
Consider that it is not merely the “good enough” singer that makes a song great, but the intrinsically the song itself and the message that it conveys. Any sane person would choose to have a Josh Groban or a Barry White rather than a “good enough” Rosanne Barr sing the Star bangles banner.
“I long ago decided that clinging tightly to principle to lose is still to lose, and that an imperfect Republican win is always and forever a win.”
And that’s your flaw not only as a political operative but perhaps as a person as well. All you’re achieving and have achieved is the maintenance of the corrupt status quo and for things to comfortably remain as they are. Scott Walker DID cling to principle and did not resort to cowardly pragmatism. The results speak for themselves.
“This primary challenge is, at its very best, trying to make the perfect the enemy of the good enough.”
Yet it must be asked why you and those that own this blog would be so vexed if Gerson were not known RP supporter but a traditional
mainstreet Republican. Is it that he is primarily an RP supporter or is that he is challenging the Kline cultists or both?
Despite the legitimacy and the right of doing so by any Republican to run in a primary , it seems to be sinful in your opinion and you’re certainly entitled to that view, yet what specifically have you done to hold Kline accountable instead of supporting him cult like election after election without question?
Though Gerson & Boberg may or may not be successful in their primary bid, they if anything have raised important accountability issues about Kline.
What have you and the Kline CULTISTS in your district actually done to address those issues? It will be essentially the same accountability issues that the DFL will bring up regardless whether Gerson runs in the primary or not. If Kline wants to retain his seat, like all politicians he must earn it, and not to just with his CULTIST followers but to all of the voters in his district. Given the CULT like atmosphere around Kline, I give Gerson and Boberg credit for their temerity and audacity in holding him accountable.
“Let me ask it this way: if your chosen candidate does NOT win the primary, will you put full effort behind the Kline campaign?”
I have not indicated at this point nor have I in all of my preceding commentary indicated for whom I would give support or who I have chosen.
That determination is ongoing as things develop, and if a candidate meets my individual expectations and is in congruence with my views I may do so
with unallayed enthusiasm.
And likewise let me ask it this way also: If your endorsed candidate is in fact an ardent Ron Paul supporter will you put full effort behind the Kurt Bills campaign or any other Ron Paul supporting candidate?
You continue to use “pragmatism” as something to be eschewed, which tells me all I need to know. You condemn putting Party above principle, but then want to put principle above pragmatism? Pragmatism means doing what best advances your agenda and losing elections doesn’t do that. I have nothing against nominating the most conservative person we can find, if they have any reasonable chance of winning the election. That is both pragmatic and principled, because you do great disservice to principle if your candidate’s principles aren’t appreciated by a majority of the electorate and therefore is “too principled” to win election. Without victory you get ruled by people who do great violence to your principles rather than, at worst, standing tepidly behind them.
As for Mr. Bills, I turned that corner at the convention, without your equivocations, just as you should have for Mr. Kline. I have also asked him to explain how his views are more mainstream and palatable to the general electorate than some of the more “extreme” or “nutty” (in the public perception) Ron Paul viewpoints, because I actually want him to win, not wage some quixotic “too principled” campaign.
Your apologia for justifying pragmatism just doesn’t wash. According to your viewpoint Scott Walker’s extreme or nutty position of sticking to principals is a guaranteed formula for defeat.
Indeed it is you specifically and others within the GOP and its controlled oracle FOX News minions that have propagated the notion and perception of “extreme”, “nutty”, “electability” and other papist bible-thumping warmongering NEOCON nonsense. Even the Democrats have been less caustic and vitriolic. But then again, those that believe that adhering to the constitution, having sound money, not interfering in the private lives of citizens, non-interventionism in the affairs of other sovereign nations and like is extreme, are worse than the most rabid progressive marxist.
Who are you and any other old guard to dictate what in your own personal perception of what is “mainstream?” The mainstream is what a good candidate, or leader does to make his ideas mainstream. Ron Paul has in the last several years been spectacularly successful in doing just that. Of course, so has Obama. What if the “mainstream” is predominantly Marxist or fascist? I suppose you would endorse any candidate that would appeal to that kind of mainstream instead of seriously challenging it. The arrogance, the claimed omniscience, and the presumptive opinion, of what is mainstream by you and the old guard is astounding, particularly given the historic track record. Furthermore, wantonly sabotaging any candidate that does not fit into your personal perception of electability does absolutely nothing to change the prevailing “mainstream” and merely preserves the corrupt status quo.
If you claim that you believe in the GOP’s,the Nation’s, and State’s prime principles, then make it so without going and continuing into the “dark side” of catering to pragmatism, political expediency, and intraparty sabotage. Step up and do all you can as a loyal and dedicated Republican to change the alleged “mainstream” perception to one that is in true congruence to “extreme” and “nutty” principles of our founders.
Popazulu,
I honestly think you are doing more harm to your cause on this thread then anything. I’m actually quite open to much of what Ron Paul has to say (honest differences on some items), but the thing that turns me off to his cause is when I disagree with a portion of platform, I’m labeled with believing in a “bible-thumping warmongering NEOCON nonsense” or “accepts without question the propaganda from sources such as FOX news, Limbaugh, Hannity, and the other papist NEOCONs…”
Also, I hate to break it to you, but the Ron Paul movement is the establishment now in MN Rep politics. The Ron Paul movement (through great organization…of a tiny fraction of the voting public) now largely controls much of what happens during convention time. So all the talk I hear about the old guard/establishment….seems a bit hollow now. It seems like time to lead and not a time to look back and complain. Your movement has the power to change it…so make things better for all of us!
I think large parts of this energy the Ron Paul movement brings to the party is positive. However, I would just remind you that the ‘old guard’ worked really hard at trying to move this state to the right (sometimes not as successful as we all would have liked, but they tried nonetheless). They worked really hard to put on the conventions that your group did such a great job taking over. They worked really hard at door knocking, lit dropping….many hours were put in by people who are now on the outside looking in. So, a bit of humility for all the hard work in the past I think would go a long way.
I tend to agree with J. Ewing that Kline wouldn’t be my first (or 10th) target. I would instead use all of the time/energy/money and put it towards beating someone like Tim Walz in the 1st. However, I certainly understand the desire to take part in primaries with people you disagree with. The problem that concerns me is that it seems like at times the Ron Paul movement refuses to come together after if there guy/gal isn’t selected (I seem to remember hearing something about not following one pol like they are a cult).
Emmer wasn’t my first choice in 2010, but I did a lot of phone calling for him….and I will say for all the support he had at the convention I certainly didn’t see many people in the South MPLS call centers I was at.
Anyway, I’m very hopefully we can find common ground and figure out how the different groups can work better together. I was thinking about something like a ‘shared principals’ (if it doesn’t already exist) or some such thing as I think the two movements have more in common then not. Let me know what you think.
All the best.
p.s. I truly had to laugh out loud when you went on and on complaining about following a single politician like it was a cult. That was funny!